Casino Punkz - Las ganancias del jugador fueron confiscadas luego de la cancelación del bono.

i deposited $2000 and won approximately $4000 for a total of $6000. I had a pending welcome bonus with a high rollover so I asked the casino representative to cancel the bonus, after confirming that this would not impact my deposit and winnings. After she did so, the entire balance was gone (which was proceeds from deposit plus winnings). She then said it was a technical error that would be resolved in the morning. In the morning, the casino stated that

When you start playing the Welcome bonus with your deposit, that money becomes the bonus balance. When you cancelled the Welcome bonus, it was therefore voided together with winnings from that money.

this is inconsistent with the terms and conditions of the bonus that state

You can choose to forfeit the bonus at any time, in which case any bonus funds and associated winnings are voided.

they have essentially taken my deposit and winnings (not bonus funds) because i asked them to void the bonus after confirming it would not impact my deposit.

i sent them the following email:

Hello, I am following up on this again. It is really important to me because it is a lot of money and I have lost my deposit. I understand that, per the terms and conditions, bonuses (and related winnings) are subject to forfeit when cancelled.The terms clearly state that "you can choose to forfeit the bonus at any time, in which case any bonus funds and associated winnings are voided." What I am talking about here is not bonus funds or associated winings. I did not receive any bonus funds nor any associated winnings.  

I am talking about deposit proceeds and associated winnings, which are separate from the bonus. Those were taken from me unfairly when I cancelled the bonus. In your response, you say that "when you start playing the Welcome bonus with your deposit, that money becomes the bonus balance." First: I did not play any money from the welcome bonus because none was released. I confirmed that with the agent who said "no funds were added, that is correct."Second, nowhere in the terms and conditions does it say that a deposit or related winnings become part of the bonus and are subject to forefeiture. If the terms and conditions said this, I would not be taking issue with you taking my deposit away from me. Again, it does not state anywhere in the terms and conditions that deposits and money actually put in are subject to forfeiture and treated like bonus proceeds. Think about it - if that were the case, deposits would be at massive risk on your site because you could lose them by not satisfying wagering requirements. AND NO ONLINE CASINOS OPERATE WITH THIS POLICY. 

Dear xxbbxxbbxx,

Thank you very much for submitting your complaint. I’m sorry to hear about your problem. Please allow me to ask you a few questions, so I can understand the whole situation completely.

• Could you please clarify if this bonus was activated by your deposit?
• Do I understand correctly that the bonus amount was never credited to your casino account?
• Can you please forward me the conversation between you and the casino representative in which you were assured that you can cancel the bonus without any consequences? My email address is kristina.s@casino.guru. If there is any other relevant communication, please forward it as well.

I hope we will be able to help you to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Thank you very much in advance for your reply.

Best regards,

Kristina

Thank you. I will try to lay it out here:

1) I deposited. 

2) I opted into the match bonus with rollover. 

3) Shortly thereafter (before any of the bonus was unlocked), I won $4000

4) I contacted live chat so to cancel the bonus so that I could withdrawal. 

5) In that conversation, she confirmed that no bonus proceeds were part of my balance and so cancelling it would not impact my balance 

6) When she cancelled, balance of account became zero (erasing deposit and winnings)

7) She said it was a technical issue and would be addressed next day 

8 Technical team said the next day that it was correct because bonuses were subject to forfeiture and my deposit became a bonus when i opted into bonus 

9) the terms and conditions of the bonus say nowhere that deposit becomes bonus - that makes no sense. obviously fine to cancel unearned bonus but no one would sign up for bonus if it put real money deposit at risk 

9) terms here: https://casinopunkz.io/promotion/100-welcome-bonus

I will forward you the live chat transcript. 

Thank you very much, xxbbxxbbxx, for your cooperation. I will now transfer your complaint to my colleague Branislav (branislav.b@casino.guru) who will be at your service. I wish you the best of luck and hope the problem will be resolved to your satisfaction in the near future.

Hello, xxbbxxbbxx,

I am sorry to hear about your unpleasant experience and apologize for the delay. I will contact the casino and try my best to resolve the issue as soon as possible.

Now, I would like to invite the casino representative to join this conversation and participate in resolving this complaint.

Dear Casino Punkz Team,

Could you please explain the player's situation in more detail? Why have the user's winnings been confiscated?

It would be highly appreciated if you could provide us with a detailed explanation on how it works at Casino Punkz if a player claim a bonus but does not touch it at all, and substantiate it with relevant rules from the casino's Terms and Conditions, where it is clearly stated/explained, and where we can find it.

How balances (real money/bonus) are separated in players' accounts, how bets are deducted from these balances when there is a bonus (unused bonus), and how winnings are credited to these balances and wagering requirements are counted. What exactly happens if a player cancels a bonus that was not used at all, and why?

Considering the fact that even the live chat representative confirmed that his real money/winnings should not have been touched if the casino had cancelled the bonus since there were no funds added, it would be highly appreciated if the casino could restore the account to the state before the bonus was cancelled.

He went to the live chat due to this information, and he received the incorrect one. I believe you agree that he would not have agreed with bonus cancelation if he had got correct information about the process.

Thank you.

I also note that they are not responding to emails now and have disabled my live chat

We would like to ask the casino to reply to this complaint. We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’ which may negatively affect its rating.

Hello,

Apologies for the delayed reply.

We are investigating the matter internally and will inform you as soon as we have an update.

Thank you for your response, Casino Punkz Team.

A significant time has passed since. Do you have any news or updates, please?

Thank you.

We would like to ask the casino to reply to this complaint. We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’ which may negatively affect its rating.

hello casino guru, now that casinopunkz has promised a response and asked for more time on multiple occasions, which is the same thing that they did with me the 10+ times i attempted to resolve this with them directly, could you please mark them as fraudulent? as a reminder, i deposited, won, asked a live chat representative to cancel the pending unearned bonus so i could withdrawl (after confirming this would not impact my winnings or my deposit), had the entire account wiped of money as a result, was told this was a technical glitch, and then later that it was correct per terms and conditions that do not exist. They have stolen my money.

Hello,

Apologies for the delayed reply.

This matter was more complicated than we initially thought and had to involve several developers to actually get to the bottom of the facts.

At the end of the day, the bonus did indeed malfunction and all the funds should not have disappeared when it was cancelled, hence we will be refunding the initial deposit back to the account for the user to withdraw. The bonus has also been fixed, so situations such as this one will not happen anymore.

We do apologise that the resolution took this long and we hope that this brings the case to a satisfactory conclusion.

you note deposit. what about the money that i won on your site? i had a balance of $6,000?

the balance should be refunded to the amount immediately preceding the bonus cancellation since the bonus was completely unearned and played no role in anything

Hello,

These winnings were achieved with the bonus money, so they would have disappeared with the cancellation of the bonus with only the real money (deposit) remaining after the cancellation.

As per the rules of the bonus (https://casinopunkz.io/promotion/100-welcome-bonus)

If you cancel the welcome offer, all bonus funds, winnings, and increments will be removed.

You’ll keep only the unused portion of your initial deposit to continue playing or withdraw as you choose.

While we are aware that some of the deposit was used in the process of obtaining the winnings, the decision was made to refund the deposit as a whole due to the bonus malfunctioning in the cancellation process.

no bonus proceeds were released so how can the winnings be with the bonus money? it was with the deposit. As I have mentioned, zero bonus dollars were used. they were never accessed.

furthermore i confirmed this exact point with a live representative prior to cancelling the bonus. you need to return the balance prior to bonus cancellation since no winnings were associated with the bonus.

Hello Joshua,

You mentioned in your first message that you had activated the bonus and after making winning wagers, you wished to cancel the bonus.

Upon activating the bonus, all the funds were locked into the bonus, therefore any winnings while the bonus is active would have been achieved with bonus money.

This is all explained in the rules of the bonus which we provided in our previous message.

I also note for you and casino guru that you appear to have updated your terms and conditions associated with this bonus after the dispute arose. they are substantially more robust now. however, the terms and conditions still states:

If you do not complete the wagering within the 3-day period, all unlocked and locked bonus funds and any associated winnings will be forfeited.

As I have stated, this is regarding winnings associated with my deposit. not any bonus.

you have added more ambiguous language since this dispute arose, but this is still the case.

please do the right thing and return my balance to what it was before the "error" occurred: AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT IS AS SIMPLE AS I MADE A DEPOSIT AND WON, NOTHING TO DO WITH A BONUS.

you have anchored to the following which you sent me in an earlier email:

When you start playing the Welcome bonus with your deposit, that money becomes the bonus balance. When you cancelled the Welcome bonus, it was therefore voided together with winnings from that money.

Where does it say this in the terms and conditions? If that were the case, it puts deposits at risk to high rollovers.

Greetings all,

Thank you both for your replies.

Dear Casino Punkz Team,

How do players see their balances (real money/bonus money) in their accounts?

Are real money balance and bonus balance separate? How are bets deducted from balances, how are winnings credited to balances, and how are wagering requirements counted? Which money is played first, and how does it work? Can you explain the process in more detail so we can see why the casino cannot credit the user's winnings back to his account?

Anyway, the user went to live chat to make sure about the process, and he got completely incorrect information. Can you please also check the communication between him and the casino live chat representative regarding the bonus cancellation?

I dare to claim that if he had not received the incorrect information, he would not have proceeded with the bonus cancellation at all. Therefore, it appears that it was not only about a technical error, but also a mistake on the casino's side/customer support.

Why, after all, can the casino not restore the user's account to the state before the incorrect bonus cancellation and provide him with clear instructions and conditions on how he should proceed, as it basically should have been done before?

Thank you.

There was no bonus money at play here because 0% of it was released. It was my deposit and associated winnings that were taken. They are arguing that once I clicked to opt into the bonus, my real money deposit and associated winnings became bonus money and were taken.

Hello,

The bonus in question is a "bounty bonus", so it works a bit differently than a "regular" 100% deposit bonus you normally see, as explained by the rules of the bonus.

To give it a quick rundown:

• You activate the bonus, your deposit is locked into the bonus.
• For each 8x wagering you complete, 10% of the bonus amount (so 10% of your initial deposit), is added to your bonus balance to play with
• This continues until you have completed the whole wagering, and then 100% of the bonus and deposit becomes withdrawable again

So the bonus was activated, but you did not wager enough to complete any of the increments to unlock the bonus funds to your balance.

Also, as mentioned in the rules:

• If you cancel the welcome offer, all bonus funds, any winnings, and any increments will be removed. Only the unused portion of your initial deposit will be available for continued gameplay or withdrawal.

So the bonus was active, you were using funds that became bonus funds upon activating the bonus, and hence upon cancelling it, the winnings achieved before the wagering is completed would also disappear as they are considered to be bonus-related winnings.

To clarify, while the bonus is active, the deposit is considered to be part of the bonus. If there is anything left of the deposit when you cancel the bonus, this will become withdrawable funds again.

It is crucial to always read the rules of the bonus and to understand what kind of a bonus it is, as not all deposit bonuses work the same way. We are assuming that Joshua thought the funds would be doubled upon deposit and the bonus funds would appear immediately, but this is not how a "bounty bonus" works.

However, how the bonus should have worked is that whatever was remaining of your deposit, about 0.48 ETH, should have been returned to your balance, but all of it was removed due to the bonus not working as it should have.

Due to this, as a gesture of good will, we made a decision to return your entire deposit, not just the part which was remaining after your attempts to wager the bonus.

For CasinoGuru, they can track the progress of the bonus from their account:

It would not be possible to restore the account to the state where it had winnings achieved with the bonus activated. This is why refunding the initial deposit is the best solution to the problem.

Finally, the Support Agent in question did give the user correct information on how the bonus SHOULD work, but it did not work the way it was supposed to. This is why the decision was made to refund the deposit to the user.

Do let us know if you need further clarification.

This makes no sense. Casino Guru, do you agree and can you mark this site as fraudulent?

Hello Joshua,

Which part of it does not make sense to you, we are happy to elaborate if required.

We can assure you that there is no "fraud" here, just a bonus that operates differently to what most would consider a "regular" deposit bonus.

This is all explained on our site in the rules of the bonus which anyone can read before even creating an account with us.

Greetings all,

I am sorry for the delay.

Dear Casino Punkz Team,

Thank you for the additional information.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that my previous questions have not been answered sufficiently.

Can you please look at my previous post and questions once again, and answer them?

In addition, since I have read the communication between the user and the casino customer support representative regarding the bonus cancellation, where incomplete/misleading information was provided, and she cancelled the player's bonus without his confirmation, can you please state a clear reason why it is not possible to restore the account to the state where it had winnings achieved with the bonus activated (the state before the bonus cancellation)?

Also, can you please forward the player's game logs to my email (branislav.b@casino.guru), and let us know how much of the bonus funds were unlocked and/or moved and where?

You mentioned that "For each 8x wagering you complete, 10% of the bonus amount (so 10% of your initial deposit), is added to your bonus balance to play with" - What does that mean when any portion of the bonus amount is added to the bonus balance? If it is in the bonus balance, are these funds again subject to wagering requirements, or how/when does it end, so a user can withdraw their winnings if they manage to meet the bonus conditions/requirements?

Thank you.

Dear xxbbxxbbxx,

In the meantime, while we wait for the casino's response and further details, can you please confirm that the casino returned your deposit to your account in full, and how much it was?

Also, please note that according to the casino's rules for its welcome deposit bonus offer, despite the information you received from the casino's live chat, it is possible you would have to simply continue playing and trying to meet the bonus wagering conditions/requiremets if the casino is able to restore your account to the state before bonus cancellation.

The casino returned my original deposit of $2000, but they did not return the winnings that were created by my $2000 (an additional $3000). I understand that per the terms and conditions, even though no bonus proceeds were used to create the winnings, these terms and conditions require rollover on my deposit winnings (note: extremely uncommon in the online casino world). This is precisely why I asked live chat if I could cancel my bonus without impact to my actual cash that I put in. However, my view is the terms and conditions are ambiguous as "winnings" does not in that sentence specify whether the very restrictive rollover is required for winnings generated from bonus proceeds (which is very common) vs winnings generated from deposited proceeds (which I have never seen before despite playing at many online casinos). Employing this tactic effectively makes welcome bonus very attractive for the casino and very unattractive for the player because your entire deposit, winnings, etc is at risk to the rollover. And this is very ambiguous in the terms and conditions. As you eluded to, there should be clear delineation so that others don’t fall into the same trap - depositing money with the promise of a bonus should they meet rollover requirements, but then subsequently realizing that they have effectively compromised their hard earned money by locking up their deposit and any winnings at a level where you effectively need to keep funds in the casino for a very long period of time (in my case, wagering $160,000 on a $2,000 deposit). When I said this felt like a scam, this is what I meant. Other players should be aware so that they do not fall into the same trap! The other thing that felt like a scam to me is I have been closely watching the terms and conditions since this occurred. The description of how this works has changed - there is a lot more detail than there was previously, even though it remains ambiguous (presumably intentionally). Finally, it feels fraudulent because the casino refused to address this directly with me. After many weeks of regularly inquiring with them, they consistently told me they would get back to me (even though they never did). It was not until after I involved the service of Casino Guru that they did. At which point they blamed it on a "technical issue." It would be great if the Company would just have the decency to return my money - I am not looking for anything that I don’t deserve, I am just looking for them to create a trustworthy environment for players - which they have clearly not done. As a regular member on the online community, I have seen that there are other trustworthy options out there. I would encourage other players to avoid getting taken advantage of by CasinoPunkz like I have.

We would like to ask the casino to reply to this complaint. We are extending the timer by 7 days. If the casino fails to respond in the set time frame, we will close the complaint as ‘unresolved’ which may negatively affect its rating.

Hello,

Of course, happy to elaborate.

The user mentions that "no bonus proceeds were used to create the winnings", but this not factually accurate.

Once they make a deposit, all funds, including the deposit are locked into the bonus, making all winnings achieved after the bonus is activated as winnings with bonus money.

This is why it is not possible to return the account to a state where it was prior to the bonus being cancelled, as cancelling the bonus at any point before the wagering is completed would have removed any funds apart from the unused part of the deposit, which was about 0.48 ETH at the time of the cancellation as we mentioned earlier. This means that if we were to return the account to the original state, they would need to start the wagering all over again for the whole amount. It is not technically possible for us to alter the wagering of a bonus.

A "Bounty Bonus" works differently to what most players would probably consider a "regular" deposit bonus as the bonus funds are released to be used incrementally when the wagering increases like the rules mention. This is why it is paramount to read the rules of the bonus and if there are unclear parts, to confirm these with someone before accepting the bonus.

However, as we can see that there was a combination of the bonus not working as it should have (this has now been fixed) and miscommunication from our Support, the decision was made as a gesture of good will to return the WHOLE deposit (1.08 ETH) instead of the 0.48 ETH which was left unused at the point when the bonus was cancelled.

As we have returned more than twice as much funds to the player's account than they would have received if they would have cancelled the bonus with it functioning normally, we would believe this is a fair compensation for the inconvenience and miscommunication.

About the incremental release of the bonus funds, hopefully this example clarifies it for you:

• You deposit 1000 USD
• All of the funds are locked into the bonus, becoming "bonus balance"
• Upon completing 8x wagering, 10% (100 USD) of bonus funds is added to your balance to play with and can be used to help you complete the wagering
• You have 72x left to wager at this point
• When you wager another 8x, another 100 USD is added and you have 64x left to wager
• And so on until all 1000 USD of bonus funds are released to your balance to play with
• If wagering is completed, the whole balance is released from the bonus.

Please let us know if this makes the situation clearer for you.

Also, we have emailed the transaction history of the player as requested.

Do let me know if you have further questions.

Greetings all,

Thank you both for your replies and additional information, and the Casino Punkz Team for the email with the requested game logs.

Dear xxbbxxbbxx,

"However, my view is the terms and conditions are ambiguous as "winnings" does not in that sentence specify whether the very restrictive rollover is required for winnings generated from bonus proceeds (which is very common) vs winnings generated from deposited proceeds (which I have never seen before despite playing at many online casinos)."

In the casino's Bonus Terms and Conditions, valid for the deposit bonus in question (available HERE), we can find the following rules:

"If you cancel the bonus, all bonus funds, winnings, and increments are removed.

You keep any unused portion of your original deposit for continued play or withdrawal

...

Canceling the bonus removes all bonus funds, winnings, and increments, but you keep any unused portion of your deposit.

...

Bonus funds and winnings earned since activation are used before deposited funds.

...

Max Bet:

o   $10 (or crypto equivalent) per spin or game round.

o   Betting more may void your bonus and winnings."

These rules apply from the moment of claiming/activating a bonus.

It appears that you wagered your deposit something more than 1x, and that no bonus funds were released/unlocked to play. On the other side, during your play, you accumulated significant winnings that the casino likely considers bonus-related or bonus-tied winnings, because the bonus was already claimed and active, which could have been checked, with the bonus progression, in the "My Bonuses" section.

The matter will be reviewed and discussed thoroughly within the casino.guru team, and I will inform you as soon as I have the relevant information.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Greetings all,

So I am here with updates and the results of the internal discussion. I am sorry for the delay.

Dear xxbbxxbbxx,

Unfortunately, your fears will likely come true.

After the internal discussion, considering all the given circumstances, it was basically agreed, without any doubt, that in this case, we side with the casino and we consider its decision to refund your deposit the most appropriate solution.

To somehow sum it up:

• Although we are talking about a special type of bonus, and the rules governing it may be a bit confusing for a user who has no previous experience with it, the casino states everything necessary in the bonus-specific rules (available through the link provided by the casino representative earlier in this thread), and after the bonus activation, all bonus rules apply to the balance and the winnings accumulated, players can check the bonus progress anytime in the respective section in their accounts, and/or they can ask the casino's customer support for more information or clarification anytime
• The information you received from the customer support was not completely incorrect - since you did not wager your deposit for the minimum required number of times (8x) to release the first 10% of the bonus amount, actually - no funds were added to your account; however, all the winings were considered bonus-tied/bonus-locked; therefore, if the bonus cancellation had worked properly, your balance would have been adjusted only to the unused part of you real money deposit
• Since the casino is technically unable to restore the account to the state before bonus cancellation, we consider their solution to refund your full deposit fair and appropriate, otherwise, you would have been eligible for less, as the casino explained above
• Although the casino did not mention this fact, I also noticed that another rule or condition from the bonus rules was breached after the bonus was activated, which likely gave you an unfair advantage in accumulating your significant winnings, and which would have likely helped you significantly in meeting the bonus wagering requirements; therefore, it is very likely that if you had managed to meet the bonus wagering requirements, your winnings could have been considered invalid anyway, and at that point, you would have received much less or even nothing from your deposit back

I sincerely believe that everything is completely clear to you now.

Now, there are only 2 options on how we can proceed and close the case.

1. You will accept our ruling and agree that the casino's solution was fair and appropriate - the case will be closed as 'resolved', with the disputed amount updated to 2,000$
2. You will not accept our position and insist on restoring all the confiscated winnings anyway - the case will be closed/rejected, with the disputed amount updated to 3,000$ (when the casino initially removed your entire balance instead of only winnings, your balance was something over 5k, not 6k, as you filled out upon submitting the complaint)

Which option suits you better, please?

Thank you for understanding. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Hello Branislav,

Thank you for the comprehensive investigation and explanation.

Dear xxbbxxbbxx,

We are extending the timer by 7 days. Please, be aware that in case you fail to respond in the given time frame or don’t require any further assistance, we will reject the complaint.

I choose option 2.

Alright, xxbbxxbbxx, we are closing the casino accordingly.

If you are not satisfied with the complaint solution, I recommend you consult the gambling authority that the casino is regulated by or an ADR, if the casino states any on its website.

I am sorry we were not able to help you with this one, but please, do not hesitate to contact us in the future if you run into any issues with this or any other casino. We are here to help.

Thank you very much, Casino Punkz Team, for providing information and for your cooperation.

Best regards,

Branislav, Casino.Guru